From: ankh_f_n_khonsu	Date: May 6th, 2008 12:48 am (UTC)		(Link)

He didn't really say much... and the comments made my eyes bleed...

	From: cadmus	Date: May 6th, 2008 01:33 am (UTC)		(Link)

I also appreciated Ken McLeod's "Rapture of the Nerds" remark.

	From: kmo	Date: May 6th, 2008 05:00 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Nerd Rapture

	From: cadmus	Date: May 6th, 2008 05:24 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Nerd Rapture

Well, that fellow goes all out. Interesting reading.

You know that I'm an ex-transhumanist, right? I used to get Extropy back in my undergrad days (late 80s, early 90s), hung out with people, was on the e-mail lists, etc. It was good fun for me in my early 20's.

I came to the conclusion quite a while ago that uploading my brain was the last thing that I would ever want to do. Whatever entity that might create, it would not be me in a meaningful way. This has more to do with the stripped down model that most transhumanists use for what they think human consciousness is than anything else though. People without bodies (and the sensations and nerves that go with them) aren't human though they might be people.

These days, while I understand that much of what people think would go into a singularity may very well occur, I'm not sure that I think of the event as anything greater than the fairly simply vision of Vernor Vinge, which is that it is the point where those of us on this side cannot predict the events (and changes) on the other side of the point. Much else seems to be the projections of the hopes and dreams of various individuals on this future. To be frank, clearly a LOT of it, for some people, the equivalent of religious belief. Arguments of rationality aside, quite a few people who believe in a vision of the Singularity are not doing anything to help it occur. They are passively waiting for it and the post-Singularity future. It is a valid criticism to point this out, even if it isn't universally true.

Personally, given all of the other things going on (like Peak Oil, lost of habitat, etc.), I'm skeptical that we'll reach anything like this point soon. I would rather see my fellow geeks focusing on how to get us through the next 30 years with an advanced, tool-making, civilization intact that still has the power and resources to create more advanced tools at all.

I did find the hint at the divisions amongst singularitarians amusing: Kooks like Terence McKenna, who connect the singularity to Mayan prophecies, are laughed at by serious singularitarians.

	From: kmo	Date: May 6th, 2008 06:03 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Nerd Rapture

You know that I'm an ex-transhumanist, right?

Yes. I remember you telling me that.

I'm with you on most of what you have to say, though I would not object to some sort of non-destructive scanning/copying process being used to create an intelligent entity based on the template of my consciousness for the purposes of exploring parts of the universe where my body could not go.

	From: cadmus	Date: May 6th, 2008 06:05 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Nerd Rapture

I agree and I think such things will be perfectly viable (or could be) as intelligent entities with self-awareness. I'm just not sure that it would be me or be human in a meaningful way. It might have my memories but I bet it wouldn't think that me in the longterm.

Of course, I'm also of the opinion that there is no "me" either. :-)

	From: kmo	Date: May 6th, 2008 05:44 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Nerd Rapture

In response to "Nerd Rapture, Not," I posted the following:

I navigated here from a peak oil discussion thread started by someone who is concerned about peak oil but who is put off by the tendency of peak oil zealots to reflexively reject any notion of a technological singularity without taking the time to thoroughly examine the arguments of Singularitarians. Another poster in that thread provided the link to "Rapture of the Nerds, Not."

I had just made a post that contained the following when I found the link:

I’ve heard people bring up the similarity between the “Geek Rapture” and the “Millenarian Christian Rapture” for over a decade now, but I’ve yet to see anyone flesh it out into a rigorous argument for rejecting the possibility of a technological singularity.

Then I came here and I read, “Kooks like Terence McKenna, who connect the singularity to Mayan prophecies, are laughed at by serious singularitarians.”

Sigh. Bias physician, heal thyself.

If you know of any "serious singularitarians" who demonstrate even a passing clue with regard to Terence McKenna’s thoughts and predictions concerning the accelerating evolution of machine intelligence, a url would be appreciated. The only person with "serious singularitarian" cred that I’ve encountered who has made a good-faith effort to take in McKenna’s viewpoint is Ben Goertzel, and Ben admires McKenna.

http://c-realmpodcast.podomatic.com/entry/2007-04-11T10_39_40-07_00

My comment is currently awaiting "moderation." Just in case the "moderation" process ends in oblivion, I post it here for safe keeping.

	From: kmo	Date: May 7th, 2008 09:59 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Nerd Rapture

Sho'nuff. It seems my comment got 'moderated' right into the round file.

	From: peristaltor	Date: May 6th, 2008 05:55 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Thinking about singularity makes me tired in the same way we used to think about the future of television. Remember when "home" videotape recorders first emerged? Not VCRs, but those big reel-to-reel jobs? This represented an enormous capital expenditure, but one could save programming for later viewing. Revolutionary!

Then came the Betamax, then VHS, each for a smaller but still substantial pile of cash. Each represented "progress." Now we have DVRs and instant-record DVDs, in some places one can get on-demand programming, all tape-free alternatives.

What makes my brain hurt? Almost none of these formats work well with each other.

It gets worse. NASA has so many outdated formats that the original video of the moon landing may be lost forever, either erased or encoded in an obsolete format on a dusty, unreadable reel. When lawmakers wisely tried to bring the IRS into the 1970s, they found no fewer than nine mainframe systems -- running exclusive language formats -- each representing a colossal portion of the archived information, making automated standardization a near impossibility.

For any intelligence to function as such, it must be able to think, to archive its findings, and -- most importantly -- to communicate with other intelligences. I strongly suspect our technological past suggests the manner by which any AI will incrementally develop.

Yet Singularians somehow think this incremental technical crawl toward a single usable artificial intelligence will be less fraught with boondoggles reminiscent of the Maginot Line?!?

Sorry for the rant, kmo. This has been bugging me for some time.

	From: cadmus	Date: May 6th, 2008 06:07 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Of course, they've also lost track of the physical tapes of the moon landing's video. They've had people turning stuff over for a couple of years trying to find them (and a call out for people that might know where they went).

	From: kmo	Date: May 7th, 2008 10:01 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Rantz-R-Us

Sorry for the rant, kmo. This has been bugging me for some time.

No problem. This topic calls out for a good rant from time to time.