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Suppressed Technologies

Ayasmina sent me an interview that she recorded. It's about 53 minutes long, and rather than edit it down to fit into a single episode I'm going to spread it over two episodes and read and respond to some email and other feedback. I got the following today, and I doubt I'll have time to really dig into any of the included links, but I would be happy to read a resonant or countervailing accompanying to the following:

Hi KMO,

I'd like to offer a thought to you that seems to be missing in the many discussions I've heard, not only on your podcasts, but also other podcast interviews when discussing the post-peak oil world.

All of these interviews have pretty much the same outlook:

An "austere" life-style...

Many folk riding bicycles for transportation, with few people traveling beyond their small local sphere. Homes that will range in temps with the seasons instead of the desired 72F. The entire consumer based manufacturing complex that needs "cheap" energy grinding to a halt... to a mere fraction of its output, reduced to what it can produce from solar cells and wind generating systems. Millions of people dying off because the artificial support of the pre-peak oil methods of agriculture can no longer be employed in the "post" world.

I submit to you that one key factor is being left out of the "equation"...

Suppressed Technologies

Yes, supressed technologies that will suddenly "surface" when the guns that have kept them supressed are no longer pointed at its possessors.

These technologies are no big secret to anyone with just a casual interest in alternative methods of generating power. And no... I'm not speaking of windmills and solar cells.

I'm speaking of "zeropoint" energy devices and water-powered engines.

On the water-powered devices, put the two names in either google or youtube videos:

Stanley Meyer (from Minnesota, I believe) and Dan Dingle... (from the Phillipines). These guys had water-powered vehicles decades ago.

On the zeropoint devices, check out the following links:

http://www.lutec.com.au/

http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html

http://www.waterfuelcarengine.com/edwin-gray.html

http://www.rexresearch.com/1index.htm

http://jnaudin.free.fr/

http://www.icehouse.net/john34/bedinibearden.html

There's enough there to keep anyone busy for months...

I'm sure you have investigated at least some of these technologies before. I'm just giving you perhaps a few more places to look.

So you see, it is my contention that these technologies cannot be left out of any discussion of the post-peak oil world. Sure, some may dismiss this all out of hand as speculation, or even hoaxes, but you can bet that there is a lot of reality in there somewhere.

Think of this:

Our so-called government has had the best and brightest technical minds recruited from colleges, with the unlimited funds from taxes and covert drug sales (black budget)... FOR DECADES! Wouldn't one assume that they have come up with some really fantastic "toys" for energy generation that would dwarf the stuff I've mentioned invented by some "lonewolf" in the private sector?

... nuff said...

For your consideration KMO...

peace and health your way!

[listener]

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Comments

( 9 comments — Leave a comment )
(Deleted comment)
kmo
Feb. 9th, 2009 02:53 pm (UTC)
More thoughts on a technological "solution."
Another listener sent me this:

http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/3619

I haven't gone back to see who sent it to me. Forgive me if it was you. I haven't finished reading it, but it seems to be shaping up into a generally skeptical take on the role of technology in seeing us through our predicament.
(Deleted comment)
kmo
Feb. 9th, 2009 03:19 pm (UTC)
Re: More thoughts on a technological "solution."
I saw more than half of Zeitgeist: Addendum. I'm pretty much on the same page with you in terms of the Venus Project. Opaquelens was supposed to be interviewing Jacque Fresco for his podcast. I don't know if that ever came to pass.

The shiny/clean futurism of the VP conceptual artwork does not appeal to me. I'd like to see some more plants and some indication of how the techno-utopia would accommodate entropy and interface with the living systems of the earth. I'd like to see that material thrown into a blender with Roger Dean's "Magnetic Storm" paintings and architectural concepts and season it with this:

http://www.archinode.com/bienal.html

Then I'd like to have the whole mixture poured into eco-village-sized cells in a cupcake pan and cooked in the oven of permaculture and served to a group of adventurous tasters.

[edit] Here's the Jacques Fresco interview on Shamanic Freedom Radio:

http://shamanicfreedomradio.podomatic.com/entry/2009-01-12T15_03_26-08_00

Edited at 2009-02-09 03:25 pm (UTC)
postrodent
Feb. 9th, 2009 04:08 pm (UTC)
Somebody may have a "zero point energy" device out there, it's true, and maybe it's even the guy at Cheniere.org -- who as far as I can tell is living in his own exceptionally vivid paranoid fantasy, but hey, so was Tesla. However, it seems to me that hoping for lots, lots more energy to just appear out of the blue exactly when we need it is very much like hoping for the Rapture.
bunnykitteh
Feb. 10th, 2009 10:41 am (UTC)
Except free energy doesn't make fundamentalists go away :(
toucansanctuary
Feb. 9th, 2009 06:59 pm (UTC)
Counter View to the Email
Hi KMO,

I'd certainly classify the author of that email as a "cornucopian." That is, "There is going to be enough of (fill in the blank) to maintain our current lifestyles.

The writer mentions zero point energy and water powered engines. I have this to say about both of these pipe dreams:

Nobody has come up with a way to skirt the laws of thermodynamics. Every single "magical cure" energy source I've read about usually requires just a bit more digging. For example, the process by which the energy is liberated may be very simple and not require any energy inputs. Seemingly you've hit the energy lottery. Upon closer inspection, you've either relied on a chemical property or reaction that requires energy to "reset" the system (or you have to find more unused/uncatalyzed inputs). Either way you run into limits. The energy required to "reset" the system (zero point process) is always more than was liberated by the device to begin with. If you don't reset it but just use more raw inputs, then you run into a physical resource constraint.

Let me give you a specific example:
About a month ago, the following article was posted on the drumbeat over at TheOilDrum.com
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090122141230.htm

After inquiring about this to people with the scientific talent to respond, I received a very well worded and coherent response which I later posted back at the OilDrum.

This was the response:

"The key to the story is this paragraph:

"Khanna hopes that the team's findings will pave the way toward investigating how the aluminum clusters can be recycled for continual usage and how the conditions for the release of hydrogen can be controlled. "It looks as though we might be able to come up with ways to remove the hydroxyl group (OH-) that remains attached to the aluminum clusters after they generate hydrogen so that we can reuse the aluminum clusters again and again," he said."

Any of the methods to remove the hydroxyl groups will require energy, but how much remains to be seen. The chemical equations must be satisfied, so if they can chemically combine two hydroxyls, then they get hydrogen peroxide, which can decompose to give O and H2O. The O will probably oxidize the aluminum, and rather quickly this will end the reaction, since it uses up the active sites on the aluminum clusters. You cannot split water into H2 + O2 and not have it take energy equal to the energy of combustion of 2 H2 + O2 = 2 H2O. The presence of hydrogen over the aluminum clusters shows that the hydroxyls repel, but the hydrogens are shielded by the Al cluster atoms, and this allows the disassociated hydrogen to combine into hydrogen molecules. The difficulty is on the side of the hydroxyl radicals."

I'm very skeptical, to say the least, about any zero-point or magical suppressed technology. But let's just play some devil's advocate against me for a moment...

Even if such a device surfaced that allowed us to continue business as usual, would that necessarily be a good thing? Won't that just delay the reckoning day concerning our fundamental problem which is perpetual exponential growth? Do we really want to add an additional 3 Billion people to the global population in my lifetime? We're just going to run into another limit somewhere down the road (Leibig's law of minimums), and the consequences of dealing with this problem later, versus now, are going to be worse...Especially when you factor in the unquantifiable aspect of human suffering.

Taking necessary steps now to cut back on growth, and reduce population, is the most humane choice available to us. It's not an easy choice, however.

TS

BTW, the technological spike link you posted above was one I sent you. ;)
l33tminion
Feb. 9th, 2009 08:12 pm (UTC)
It's the intersection of technological utopianism and corporate dystopianism.

A quote from here (one of the pages above) sums it up nicely:
Witnesses saw his machines running successfully, but later others were unable to build devices according to his published instructions.

Of course, the lack of any scientist showing such principles in a repeatable manner or any businessperson implementing such technology on a large scale (when any of the above would have some pretty significant incentives to do so) is cited as proof of just how good the coverup must be.

It's kind of sad how a lot of people find it more comfortable to imagine that technology will override the fundamental principles of physics than that human society will change in a significant way.
peristaltor
Feb. 9th, 2009 10:15 pm (UTC)
It's kind of sad how a lot of people find it more comfortable to imagine that technology will override the fundamental principles of physics than that human society will change in a significant way.

Well put.
davidfkane
Feb. 11th, 2009 12:00 pm (UTC)
Whether we have these technologies, or not, we are not mentally ready build a society based on these. If we had free energy, going at our current clip - we would turn the planet into a hothouse - just from all the heat dissipated.

So, while I don't rule these out, I tend not to think of these things. We need to get our house in order first.

Free energy now, could be the worst thing to give humanity.

We first have to stop this ridiculous growth economy idea - no one is having fun anymore. We've got to change our attitude.

David.
davidfkane
Feb. 11th, 2009 12:02 pm (UTC)
... in other words; Society would keep doing all the stupid s**t that it is doing now except orders of magnitude faster.
( 9 comments — Leave a comment )

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